what features should a single track trail have??

[Tim]

This is actually in regards to angel mounds but I'm going to try and generalize it for people who have never been there.

I'll give you the run down.....
It's a single track trail that is basically flat and smooth.
It is more useful as an endurance trail system. It's also the only place you can take your kids to ride.

It was pretty damaged by the 2005 tornado and what was not damaged was soon torn up and destroyed when they let loggers in
to harvest the trees.

Anyway, what was left was just carnage and deeply rutted log truck paths that were eventually turned into trails.

Most of which are still, 4years later, rutted mucked up muddy messes.

As far as obstacles go, there aren't many. There are a few jumps and log crossings but nothing major.

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My question is:

What do you prefer on a trail system like this?

Would you keep the muddy rutts or try to smooth the worst parts out?

Keep in mind the worst of the rutted trails stay impassable till summer. They hold a lot of standing water.

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I don't mind some of the rutts, I'm just not a fan of the log roads that just stay muddy and useless most of the time. I have to look at it from other points of view like hiking.

So what type of features, with what I've described, would you expect or prefer to find on a trail system like this?

[ricdix]

I'll echo what nathan said in a one of the other threads. The land manager should solicit advice from HMBA or visit Harmony. That would allow them to see an example of a trail built to IMBA specifications. Or get your hands on a copy of IMBA's "Trail Solutions" and share it with them. If you don't have a copy check with the HMBA guys. Explain to them what you trying to accomplish..... I would be surprised if the didn't mail you one. By the way, if you've never read it, its a must read for anyone interested in trail work. Good stuff.
That said, if the land is completely flat and doesn't lend itself to a contour trail then I suggest you guys build an elevated ladder bridge trail system complete with rollers, pump bumps, berms and a teeter or two. Let me know when you done. Ha.

[Tim]

I would agree.......... but,but,but..........

I don't think the emphasis is on mountain biking in general.
And from what I can gather, they are not going to do anything
special that will require any major construction unless it's fully funded by other means. It has recreational value but that is about it. It's not necessarily a "bike trail" even though it is used mostly and maintained almost exclusively by riders.

Hell, what was spent on one bridge could have paid for 3 smaller ones. They are huge.

It has always been a low / wetland area, even when it was just farmland it had drainage issues. I sent them the "sustainable trails"
and "wetland trail building" info. It's up to them to really utilize it
to their best possible advantage.

They are more than likely going to try and meet everyone's needs in the middle so you almost have to look at it from both points of view, hiking and biking.

I think they will probably raise the low areas the best they can by adding fill but they also want access by truck and 4x4 in case of emergencies. I'm not sure what the emergency would be that you would require such a feature in such a small area.
I'm just curious what features would benefit the biker and not interfere with the other rec value.

I'm just taking the initiative to try and get a centralized idea of what we all want and need as mountain bikers / hikers.

At times I feel like I'm being a bug a boo.
I just happen to enjoy the place and care about it's future use.
Thanks for the input.

[nathan]

*ahem*

southernindianatrails.awardspace.com/graphics/ambikeentry.jpg

;D

[Eric]

Wow those look like they hold some serious water. Some trails that I used to race on in northern Indiana in the past has used some things that I would not have thought would work. They actually put wood skids down in some of the wet land areas. It keeps the bike out of the mud and does not cost much to put out there. I don't know how long they lasted, but it made a trail ride able that would not have been with out them.

[kylekirkman]

Here's my op. and it's not a favorable one.

Angel Mounds needs to be completely re worked, if not scrapped altogether.
Trails on a marsh is a dumb idea. Silt plus organics has never made a smart soil type to build anything on.

However if trails must exist at angel, I propose a massive reworking and structural overhaul.

[Tim]

I like the ladder bridge idea but they want to run their truck back there.

Scrapped? I think some of the log road trail should have been from the get go, the rest is usually ok. I think if they had been designed right they may have been ok. One thing I would like to see is some berms on the trails by the levee.

[ricdix]

Sorry guys... I was just kidding about the elevated ladder bridge trail system. Even a small bridge can be an expensive, labor intensive, maintenance nightmare.
My honest opinion... marshy, low lying bottoms should be avoided at all cost. From looking at the photo's some of the trail should be closed or re-routed. (sorry... I know I'm not making any friends with that suggestion)
No reason to feel like a bug a boo. Every trail system needs guys like yourself. Someone with leadership skills and the initiative to help improve the trail for everyone to enjoy. (I'm not just saying that to score points, truth)
Good luck.

[Tim]

I should have mentioned that the trail photos were "worst case" scenario. Early spring saturated ground.

As far as maintenance...
I would consider any wooded trail system to be
high maintenance. tree fell, limbs, etc.
I wouldn't consider a narrow boardwalk system to
be that high maintenance.
If you compare other current maintenance.

Lately the trail has been high maintenance to get to the shape it's in now. As far as wetland, I would say a mere 5% of the whole trail is
deterred by wetland conditions. Now anyway, because the canopy is gone and the area is open a lot more.

I'm not so much concerned with the marsh conditions, I think some have an idea of what a wetland area looks like and Angel Mounds is not quite the picture image of a stereotypical "wetland".
Most of is / was hardwood forest. It has enough diverse conditions that don't really interfere with having trail. Having the right trails I should say.

wow, I sound like I have a masters degree in upland forestry

Seriously though, As a mountain biker, do you like having the big mud bog / rutted trail conditions or would you rather have good fast trail with a few obstacles here and there ?

More dirt jumps or berms.......

i like a little mud here and there but damn.... (ha)

[kylekirkman]

If one wants mud then go pour a couple of hundred gallons of water in your personal backyard mud pit, roll around in it, and then jump on your bike.

I have a real problem with people purpously riding in sopping wet conditions, because when you put work into trials to make them fast and flowy and people do irreprible damage........

you get real miffed.

******
Quality sustainable trails. period. Ricdix is certainly correct in closing and rerouting portions of the angel trails....... I propose closed and rerouted, AND THEN BUILT CORRECTLY to avoid future problems, and to make it a better, faster, much mo better trail.
******
In any event I could give a turd about climbing. I do it but I could care less about it. I want to fly, rip, and bomb. That's why I ride certain trails in certain directions..... And that's how it's going to be at Harmonie for the advanced section....Long sections of overall grade down, or up depending on how you look at it.....

Look at Brown county- trails are divided into levels and have different features incoorporated into them. That design and should be the benchmark- and it is the benchmark for the entire midwest. We should follow suit.

for angel- keep it simple. Keep it from becoming a scales littered with poor design, blown ridge and valley "trail", and keep the poor quality features away. rather than incoorp technical features, go somewhere else and make a technical trail....

IE Bike Park,
IE Harmonie upcoming sections

Remember people are coming in the next month to the area to lend a hand...........

[Tim]

I like a little mud, I remember going to harmonie before it opened.
It was real muddy and loose, once your tires dug a 4" trench down in the path, it was great.


(ha ha)

[marshall]

this is a thread that I am going to be keeping an eye on as I got the go ahead from my family to build as I please on the family farm (about 2 hours away i think but it's a wooded 165 acres) I just need a way to get down there and explore the land and see what it has to offer. Trying to find someone that will let us borrow a 4 wheeler right now so i've got my fingers crossed

[revelstoker]

Well, the ground is flat and gets wet often and it stays wet.

I like Angel Mounds as it is a good place to take the kids and wife but I also like it as it can be ridden to. Due to its flat nature, its a place that can be ridden at a quick pace.

However, as it is, it is kind of boring.

I think back to my younger years when we constructed our very own BMX tracks in the vacant lots plus some of the riding I have done in flat areas, and it can be fun.

Snaking the trail around trees can imitate a slalom or GS course and can add a lot of excitement to trying to go fast and adds that additional "ewoking" affect if the trees are tight and speed is sufficient.

Berms and banks added the the few places where the trail dips down can add some fun and help keep the pace.

Woops and jumps are fun, as long as there are ride-arounds.

Natural features like log/stone bridges (ie stepping stones, not structural) add technical difficulty and there is plenty of deadfall to exploit.

Free ride, teeter-totters, rails (4x4 bridges) and ramps might be incorporated on a "tougher" section.

Anyway, just a few thoughts to add some spice and if the bike path ever goes through, Angel might be a little more populated.